The Exchange with Ed Stetzer

Dave Ferguson planted a church that planted a network, which then became a movement in about 69 countries. He tells Ed Stetzer why growth is often where multiplication stops, and why reproducing disciples begins with the condition of the leader. The conversation Why do growing churches stop multiplying? Ferguson discusses a five-level scale of church health: declining, plateauing, growing, reproducing, multiplying. He says many churches in the West spend their effort reaching the third level and stay there. A plateaued church spends to get to growth. A growing church faces a second set of costs, buildings and staff, to reproduce. His own church waited nine years before it planted a church, which he calls a regret. He asks every leader to multiply at the smallest scale, in a small group with an apprentice, at any church size. What should a leader check before trying to multiply? Ferguson argues that leaders drift by degrees and reproduce who they are, so the work starts inside. Most mornings he marks four gauges, relational, physical, mental and spiritual, as full or empty. Four practices follow: make disciple makers, establish spiritual communities, mobilize new leaders, and launch church expressions, in forms he says can be micro, macro or meta. Ferguson also argues that the DNA of movement lives in every believer because Christ is in them. From the conversation “I would say that any movement, for great good or great evil, has at its very core some form of apprenticeship.” Dave Ferguson “If Jesus is inside of us, everything that’s needed to forgive our past, to give our present a purpose, to give our future a hope for us exists inside us.” Dave Ferguson “When you’re plateaued or declined, you’re doing everything you can to get money so you can get to growth, to add staff so you can get to growth, add programs to get to growth.” Dave Ferguson “You can’t lead what you won’t live, and as a pastor and leader, for me, when I preach at Mariners, I actually will get up and say, every sermon I try to mention something about my life group.” Dave Ferguson About Dave Ferguson Dave Ferguson co-planted Community Christian Church in the Chicago area and is the visionary for NewThing, a church-planting network with a footprint in about 69 countries. He is president of Exponential and the author of Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create a Lasting Impact. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Pastors remain tired, and Léonce B. Crump Jr. agrees with Ed Stetzer that the cultural division that followed COVID has not peaked. The two discuss what a leader needs in reserve, and what a leader has to stop avoiding to stay in the work. The conversation How do pastors build resilience that lasts? In the face of perpetual exhaustion, Crump names his reservoirs: the vision God gave him, a practiced Sabbath, a local community of pastors, and a coach, a counselor and a pastor. He argues that leaders need a place to say anything without recourse, and that the higher a leader’s profile, the smaller that place becomes. Grit, he says, comes from choosing difficulty, and the first hard thing he names for pastors is rest. How should pastors lead through a divided culture? Crump preached a series from the Book of Daniel with the tagline “Living under leadership you didn’t choose,” arguing that most people in most of history lived under rulers they did not select, and that God’s people have lived through conditions like these before. He says the church, like Western education, tends to be ahistorical, and that a leader who panics will lead a congregation in panic. From the conversation “In order for us, I believe, to function and thrive healthily, we have to have a space where we can say anything and everything without recourse.” – Léonce B. Crump Jr. “The thing that you are avoiding, the thing that you don’t want to do, is probably the doorway to your next level.” – Léonce B. Crump Jr. “We have developed a culture that is averse to suffering. And unless you have purposefully put yourself in athletics or the military or some other form of voluntary suffering, it’s very hard to develop grit in your life.” – Léonce B. Crump Jr. “If God is truly sovereign, then we can’t live in panic. And if we live in panic, then we’re going to lead our people in panic. We have to lead them with a steady hand.” – Léonce B. Crump Jr. About Léonce B. Crump Jr. is co-founder of United Church in Atlanta, which began as Renovation Church in 2008. He is the author of The Resilience Factor and Renovate: Changing Who You Are by Loving Where You Are. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Ed Stetzer asks JP Pokluda how a church leader tells a cultural problem from a spiritual one, and how the answer changes the way that leader prays. Pokluda says that the enemy goes after faith, and that authenticity is the best protection for a pastor and a congregation. How can a pastor take spiritual warfare seriously without obsessing over it? Stetzer raises C.S. Lewis’s two errors of ignoring the devil and obsessing over him. Pokluda adds a third: believing the enemy exists and letting that belief change nothing about how one lives. Stetzer asks whether a leader should call consumerism and performance idolatry and call for repentance, address them missiologically, or rebuke them as demonic. Pokluda says no one can know exactly where one ends and the other begins. He says the enemy runs many strategies and that the main one is distraction from God, with comparison and discontent as its ordinary means. What protects a pastor and a congregation from spiritual attack? Pokluda’s answer is straightforward: faith. He points to the shield of faith and to Jesus's prayer that Peter's faith would not fail, and he says that studying the subject left him less afraid and more faithful. The weight falls on what a pastor teaches, Pokluda argues. Leaders who train a congregation to look and sound like Christians while living differently in private, he says, are building toward disaster. From the conversation “As with all wars and all battles, there's lots of strategies, there's tributary fights, but the main current of what they're trying to do is distract us from the most high God, the creator of the heavens and the earth.” JP Pokluda “They're really looking for that inauthenticity. They're looking for double lives. They're looking for the pretenders. They have a heyday with that.” JP Pokluda “Be holy because he's holy, but not in an effort to appear holy, but to genuinely live a holy life.” JP Pokluda About JP Pokluda Jonathan “JP” Pokluda is Lead Pastor of Harris Creek Baptist Church in Waco, Texas, and the author of Your Story Has a Villain, Welcome to Adulting, and Outdated. He previously led The Porch in Dallas. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Usha Reifsnider's research among Hindu-background converts in Britain found churches that welcomed them but had not heard them. She and Ed Stetzer discuss muted group theory, language, and evangelism. The conversation What is muted group theory, and what does it say about the church? Reifsnider describes muted group theory, defined by Edwin and Shirley Ardener, through the workplace of the 1970s, where a woman admitted to a dominant group had to act as the men did. Ed Stetzer distinguishes the theory from critical theory and asks why the church should attend to unheard voices. She answers with her doctoral fieldwork: pastors told her their churches were united and multicultural, and she concluded that the people she needed to hear were the converts themselves. In church settings, she says, they used the words that earn recognition and left their pain and struggle unsaid. How should a church start hearing people unlike its majority? Ed Stetzer observes that people in a majority culture can feel fear when they stop being the majority, and asks how to respond. Reifsnider says it is easy to point to scripture, and that Christianity is lived through experience. She starts with relationship: coffee, a meal, friendships with Christlike people, built without the obligation to place someone who looks different in the pulpit. She argues that a multicolored church is not always a multicultural one, that words such as family carry different weight for a Western Christian and a Gujarati-speaking migrant, and that pastors should read majority-world theologians alongside their usual authors. Inclusion, she says, does not negate the voice of the majority culture in its own country. Asked by Ed Stetzer about Christian obligation, she grounds it in who Jesus was and says friction produces energy for growth. On the pace of evangelism, she says evangelical urgency produces templates that discard more than they hold. Stetzer replies that his concern is whether Christians share the gospel at all. From the conversation "The truth of the matter is that we live our Christianity through our lived experiences. And so people say all the time, 'Your identity is in Christ.' But sometimes the challenge for me is how a majority culture identifies me." - Usha Reifsnider "Build that relationship without feeling the obligation that I've just have to find somebody who looks different and plonk them in the pulpit to prove that I'm actually being as diverse as I can be." - Usha Reifsnider "I think the gospel was always meant to be one of movement. The gospel was never meant to be stuck in one place. It was never meant to be just one language or one location." - Usha Reifsnider About Usha Reifsnider Usha Reifsnider has served in cross-cultural mission since 1988, with a focus on migrant engagement. She holds a PhD at the intersection of cultural anthropology and practical theology and serves as a Lausanne Europe regional director and on the board of the European Evangelical Alliance. Her book is Unmuted: Speaking to Be Heard. Website: https://www.ushamattreifsnider.com Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Historian John Dickson and Ed Stetzer teach an evangelism course together at Oxford and air their disagreements in front of the students. Here they take up two of those disagreements, and a question with stakes for American churches: what Christians should do with cultural power? The conversation How did the early church spread the gospel? Dickson opens by defending his refusal of the title "apologist." Secular usage now means propagandist, he argues, and apologetics that selects only favorable evidence will fail the first skeptic who has read further. Ed, dean of a school with a large apologetics program, holds to the word and agrees about the practice. The sharper disagreement is historical. Dickson reads 1 Peter 3:15, the Great Commission, and Psalm 96 as one pattern, in which conviction that Christ holds all authority comes first and the readiness to speak follows. He calls the decline of evangelism a spiritual crisis first. Should Christians use cultural power to change laws? Ed challenges the phrase Dickson uses to unsettle audiences: Christians should learn to lose well. In America, Ed notes, that can sound like a loser's mentality, and evangelical influence can change laws for good. Dickson agrees influence should be used, through persuasion, gentleness, and respect, and warns that power makes it easy to sound like a bully. His measure comes from Bullies and Saints. Jesus set a melody of love for enemies, and the church's record shows departures from it that were often exposed by the Christians who condemned them. He closes with a test for American churches: whether skeptics would describe Christians as people who give themselves for others. From the conversation "The way the early church grew in antiquity was in more subtle ways. Yes, every Christian was on the lookout for opportunities to give an answer for the faith, but it's these other dimensions of prayer, godly life, and money." — John Dickson "It seems to me the thing that inspires evangelistic activity and zeal is a fresh vision of Christ's majesty over all things." — John Dickson "Let us allow the truth to be the offense, not the way we present it. And let us, whenever we defend the truth, sound like we're not protecting our tribe." — John Dickson About John Dickson John Dickson is a historian of early Christianity and Judaism, an ordained Anglican, and the Jean Kvamme Distinguished Professor at Wheaton College. He hosts Undeceptions and is the author of more than 20 books, including Bullies and Saints. More at johndickson.org. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Alister McGrath says no one can prove what matters most, so atheists and Christians alike live by belief and live with doubt. The conversation Can Christians hold beliefs they cannot prove? McGrath begins from a claim about human life: meaning, moral value, and purpose cannot be established by reason or the scientific method, yet people do not flourish without them. He extends the point to atheism, recalling that when he pressed Richard Dawkins on whether atheism could be proven, Dawkins conceded it could not. Does a Christian worldview compete with science? Ed raised the objection McGrath's debate partners would make: that the Christian lens is a fantasy laid over the observable world. McGrath answers that science is a tool built for particular questions, and that using it to settle moral values is like using a thermometer to find the meaning of life. McGrath closes on what he calls Christianity's existential payload, a truth that changes a life. From the conversation "There are certain places it cannot go. It cannot talk about things like the meaning of life. It cannot talk about moral values, for example, because these both lie beyond the scope of the scientific method." Alister McGrath "I can prove really shallow truths, but not deep truths of meaning or moral value or purpose." Alister McGrath "The great big pictures of life which held sway for so long are just being junked, and there's nothing obvious that's going to replace them." Alister McGrath "Doubt is saying, 'I need to go into this deeper. My present understanding of this is not good enough.' Doubt is an invitation to explore, to go deeper." Alister McGrath About Alister McGrath Alister McGrath is emeritus Andreas Idreos Professor of Science and Religion at the University of Oxford and President of the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics. He holds doctorates in molecular biophysics, theology, and intellectual history, and his books include Dawkins' God and C.S. Lewis: A Life. His latest book is Why We Believe: Finding Meaning in Uncertain Times. Website: https://alistermcgrath.weebly.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AlisterMcGrath Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/086154921X Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Lisa Harper says church leaders, herself included, have watered down theology, and that doctrine that leaves character unchanged falls short. The conversation How should pastors teach theology to their people? For years Harper gave her neighborhood Bible study a story, a short exegesis, and a takeaway, following homiletic rules she learned in her thirties. She now says it was her desire to be understood that was watering down her doctrine. Her test case is the hypostatic union. Stetzer frames the vocabulary question in plain terms: people who learn to order at Starbucks can learn theological language at church. Does correct doctrine excuse bad character? Stetzer names a pattern he sees: leaders who check every doctrinal box, treat people poorly, and get a pass. Harper rejects the assumption that their theology is good. She claims gaining information is important, since it informs our understanding of Jesus, but she believes that theology solely bound to academics is lifeless. How much of your own story belongs in a sermon? Harper’s test on whether a story is appropriate to share is if Jesus remains the hero. She names two failures she has corrected in herself: telling stories that belong to someone else, and humor at her own expense that made her the emphasis. She argues that stories of darkness can also become self-aggrandizing when listeners rally around the speaker's pain. On the opposite end is editing so much that teaching becomes performance. From the conversation "Show me somebody who has strong theology but doesn't have humility, and I would say that the information hasn't softened the heart yet." — Lisa Harper "I think the onus is on us, and I don't think we've done a good job." — Lisa Harper "I don't want to edit so much when I'm teaching that it becomes performative instead of testimonial." — Lisa Harper "If you can learn to order coffee at Starbucks, you can learn some theological language at church." — Ed Stetzer About Lisa Harper Lisa Harper is a Bible teacher, speaker, and author of more than a dozen books and Bible studies, including A Jesus-Shaped Life: How Diving Deeper into Theology Can Transform Us and Our World with the Radical Kindness of God. She hosts the Back Porch Theology podcast and founded The Kerygma Summit, an annual gathering of theologians and Bible teachers. She holds a Master of Theological Studies from Covenant Seminary. Website: https://www.lisaharper.org Podcast: https://www.lisaharper.org/backporchtheology Instagram: https://instagram.com/lisadharper Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OfficialLisaDHarper Book: https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Shaped-Life-Theology-Transform-Kindness/dp/0800744764 Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Villodas arrived with a definition of anxiety that implicates confident leaders as much as worried ones. Stetzer spends most of the hour testing whether a congregation can hold that much internal difference and still teach anything difficult. Why do confident pastors still lead anxiously? Villodas separates anxiety from worry. Worry is a feeling a pastor can honestly deny. Anxiety, as he uses the term, is the automatic response to a real or perceived threat, and it shows up as manipulation, coercion, anger, or avoidance. That definition does real work in the conversation, because it moves the diagnosis away from the visibly stressed pastor and toward the one who cannot leave room for dissent. His own test is whether he can tell a staff member to push back and mean it. When he cannot stand disagreement, he reads that as anxiety rather than conviction. Stetzer sharpens this into something a listener will recognize, noting that pastors can grow worse at formation than the people they lead because they treat sermon preparation as their spiritual life. Drawing on the pastors moving through his cohort, Villodas says the average pastor has no plan for personal formation and is living off someone else's spirituality: podcasts, books, other people's sermons. Can a politically mixed church still teach hard convictions? Villodas describes his congregation as split roughly in thirds between Trump voters, Harris voters, and people who abstained. Stetzer asks the difficult question: does a spread like that indicate a pastor avoiding the sharp edges of Scripture? Villodas responds by saying that a single message cannot form anyone, so a church that wants to hold a hard conviction has to build multiple spaces for conversation, listening, prayer, and self-examination around it. Alignment is a low bar for a pastor to clear. Discipleship is the actual assignment. He frames the pastoral task as creating an environment where difference does not automatically produce disconnection, which he ties to differentiation: staying close to God, to yourself, and to others under high anxiety. He also insists on understanding how people arrived at their conclusions, since depersonalizing someone strips the story that produced the conviction. Where does pastoral burnout actually begin? Burnout, in Villodas’s account, is the attempt to give what you do not have, which is why he starts with relationships rather than Sabbath. Villodas argues that emotional pain persists when there is no relational home to hold it, and he applies this directly to pastors carrying criticism, hard emails, and board conflict without anywhere to put them. Is the narrow path about salvation or discipleship? Villodas grants that Matthew 7 is usually read salvifically, as a statement about how few are saved, and argues instead that Jesus is describing discipleship. He works from three categories he takes from Dale Bruner: successism, moralism, and individualism. Against successism he sets the Beatitudes as a reframing of what counts as blessing. Against individualism he sets love of neighbor as the proof of love for God. He also inverts the usual sequence between prayer and mission, treating mission as a root of formation rather than a result of it, and points to his church's health center, pantry, and youth organizing work as the setting where that formation happens. From the conversation Ed Stetzer: "I'm of the view that pastors sometimes are worse than regular people when it comes to their spiritual formation 'cause they just sort of rely on their preparation as their formation." Rich Villodas: "But anxiety is not simply about worry. Anxiety is what is the automatic response to distress or disagreement." Rich Villodas: "I think the average pastor's living off the spirituality of someone else. Podcasts, other sermons. There's not a cultivation of being with God and speaking out of that place." Rich Villodas: "It's a narrow path that leads to the kind of spacious life that we long for." About Rich Villodas Rich Villodas is the Brooklyn-born lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a large multiracial church in Queens with more than 75 countries represented. He is the author of The Deeply Formed Life (2020), Good and Beautiful and Kind (2022), and The Narrow Path (2024). Website: https://www.richvillodas.com/ Books and links: https://linktr.ee/richvillodas Instagram: @richvillodas X: @richvillodas Church: https://elmhurst.newlife.nyc/ Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Barna's research puts practicing Christians ahead of the general population in regular AI use, and ahead of the pastors who lead them. David Kinnaman argues the church's answer is not better tips, but a theology of technology, and a clear line between fluency and authority. Are Christians really using AI more than everyone else? Kinnaman opens with a caveat: research is good at telling us what is happening, less good at why. What it shows, he says, is a reversal. Practicing Christians, usually late adopters, are at the leading edge of this one. He cites Barna findings that 44 percent report using AI often or very often, against 31 percent of the US adult average and 29 percent of non-practicing Christians. Ed's framing: leaders still file AI under future issues, while the data puts it in their congregations' ordinary week. Why are pastors more cautious than their congregations? Ed pushes hardest here, asking whether the gap is healthy or a leadership problem. Kinnaman does not concede that caution is wrong, but he does argue pastors are behind. His explanation is sociological rather than theological: practicing Christians are more likely to be parents, volunteers, and members of community groups, so they meet more of the daily friction these tools remove. Pastors use AI too, he says, for ideation and sermon material, with cautions attached. The more consequential finding is what congregants want from their leaders. Not tips and tricks, but a philosophy, a kind of theology of technology. Kinnaman calls that a gap the church can fill, and does not say who fills it otherwise. Should Christians use AI for prayer or spiritual growth? Ed brings the question down to a case. During a recent hospitalization, ChatGPT told him it was praying for him before surgery. He posted about it and heard from the Washington Post. He asks where spiritual engagement with AI should be encouraged and where it should worry us, and Kinnaman declines to draw a bright line. His position is that the question has to be re-asked continuously, because what holds today may not hold in a few months. What he rules out is abstention. He tells a story about sitting out Facebook, and says AI is not that. What does the church have that AI does not? The argument lands on a distinction Kinnaman credits to another leader, whose name the transcript garbles. Language models are fluent, and fluency reads like knowledge because it moves in patterns we recognize. Authorship, not fluency, produces authority: you have standing on a subject because you did the work. The theological turn follows fast. The algorithms are never silent, which trains people to treat God as instantly summonable, a lamp to rub. Kinnaman's counterclaim is that the church holds what no model holds, the human word of forgiveness, spoken by a person, grounded in the cross. Asked what we have underestimated, he names what technology has always offered: comfort and control. From the conversation "So first of all I just think we have to have an adaptive, leaning in posture. This is not a revolution you can sit out." — David Kinnaman "Authorship gives you authority. When you write something from scratch, you have an authority on that subject if you do your work and do your homework." — David Kinnaman "We have to recognize I think this is going to be over the next five years, quite a bulldozer of all the things that we held dear" — David Kinnaman About David Kinnaman David Kinnaman is CEO of Barna Group. Since 1995 he has directed interviews with more than two million individuals and overseen thousands of research studies. He is the author of unChristian, You Lost Me, Good Faith, and Faith For Exiles. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this special mini-episode, Ed Stetzer shares a brief personal update following an unexpected health issue and surgery over the summer. While he is doing well and making progress in recovery, the official relaunch of the Stetzer Church Leaders podcast is being pushed back by just a couple of weeks to allow for extra healing time. Ed expresses his gratitude for all the support and prayers as he prepares to return with a brand-new season (and YouTube channel) very soon! Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Why do some church members remain deeply committed and generous for years while others quietly drift away from giving? In this episode, Ed Stetzer sits down with Jaclyn Jones, Chief Philanthropic Economist at Masterworks, to unpack the findings of the Faithful Giving Project. Stripping away assumptions about age, income, and education, Jones shares data that reveals a link between a believer’s active spiritual formation and their capacity for sustained generosity.From analyzing the gaps between casual givers and deeply committed disciples to dismantling the fear pastors often have around discussing money from the pulpit, this conversation provides ministry leaders with a fresh perspective on how to view generosity not as a transactional obligation, but as a vital marker of spiritual discipleship.ABOUT OUR GUESTJaclyn Jones serves as Chief Philanthropic Economist at Masterworks. A researcher, speaker, and fundraising strategist, she helps Christian organizations translate donor data into stronger relationships and sustainable revenue growth. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

While data points to an encouraging rise in spiritual interest and openness across the nation, local congregations face a critical bottleneck: spiritual formation is not keeping pace with spiritual curiosity. In this episode of the Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast, Ed Stetzer sits down with Brad Hill, Chief Partner Success Officer at Gloo, to explore the latest State of the Church research data and dissect the modern trends that every ministry leader must understand to guide people effectively.Hill highlights four critical trends reshaping the landscape of ministry, ranging from an unprecedented spiritual vibe shift among Gen Z—particularly young men—to surprising surges in weekly prayer practices. He also addresses the rapid integration of Artificial Intelligence within the pews, highlighting data showing that one-third of practicing Christians trust AI tools for spiritual guidance just as much as their local pastor. From exploring redemptive uses of emerging technology to shifting success metrics away from traditional "butts, budgets, and baptisms," this conversation provides church leaders with a practical framework to build discipleship in your church.ABOUT OUR GUESTBrad Hill has been deeply involved in solving technology challenges for the church for over 25 years. He serves as Chief Partner Success Officer (www.gloo.com), and is responsible for putting their platform capabilities to work for churches, networks, and the expanding portfolio of brands in the Gloo family.Prior to Gloo, Brad was President at Ministry Brands. As a former church tech founder himself, Brad has the perspective to see and leverage patterns in tech innovation that can help the Church further its mission.In addition to his experience starting, building and coaching companies for Kingdom and business impact, Brad has also served in lay leadership at several churches across multiple denominations.Brad lives in Knoxville, TN with his wife and two kids. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Why are so many ministry leaders struggling with unhappiness, and how can the tools of behavioral science intersect with Christian theology to bring true joy? In this episode, Ed Stetzer sits down with social scientist, Harvard professor, and bestselling author Arthur Brooks to discuss his latest insights on the science of happiness and its profound implications for church leaders.Brooks unpacks the four pillars of a happy life (faith, family, friendship, and work that serves other people) and addresses why pastors often score low on personal enjoyment despite their high sense of vocational meaning. Tracing the distinctions between worldly pleasure and holy enjoyment, Brooks addresses the reality of spiritual desolation, drawing on the wisdom of St. Ignatius of Loyola to explain why feeling distant from God doesn’t make a leader a fraud. From practical self-management routines to redefining ministry success away from numerical idolatry, this conversation offers pastors a vital roadmap to sustain their inner lives and lead with authentic joy.ABOUT OUR GUESTArthur C. Brooks is a social scientist, author, and speaker known for his work on happiness, leadership, meaning, and human flourishing. He serves as a professor at Harvard University, where he teaches courses on leadership and happiness.Brooks previously served as president of the American Enterprise Institute and has written bestselling books including From Strength to Strength and Build the Life You Want, co-authored with Oprah Winfrey. Drawing from research, personal experience, and moral philosophy, Brooks helps audiences think deeply about purpose, relationships, and well-being. He is a sought-after speaker among business, academic, nonprofit, and faith-based audiences. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What if our common understanding of heaven and the afterlife misses the plot of the biblical narrative? In this episode, Ed Stetzer connects with biblical scholar and theologian N. T. Wright to talk about his book, God’s Homecoming. Wright explains how popular Christian ideas about escaping the physical world to live in a disembodied heaven are rooted more in Platonism than the text of Scripture.Tracing themes from Genesis to Revelation, Wright highlights God's design for heaven and earth to work together, culminating in a future resurrection and a renewed creation. He discusses the current role of the Holy Spirit in looking after believers between death and the final resurrection, and how the church can act as a local model of this new creation today. For leaders navigating modern ministry, this conversation provides a challenge to align our language, hope, and social action with a historic, biblical framework.ABOUT OUR GUESTN. T. Wright is a leading New Testament scholar, theologian, and former Bishop of Durham in the Church of England. He is widely known for his work on the historical Jesus, the Apostle Paul, resurrection theology, and the kingdom of God. Wright has taught at Oxford, Cambridge, and McGill University and currently serves as Senior Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.He has written influential books including Simply Christian, Surprised by Hope, and Paul and the Faithfulness of God. Wright is respected for making complex theology accessible to pastors, students, scholars, and everyday Christians around the world. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What does it mean to be human in an age that celebrates the destruction of the sacred? In this timely episode, Ed Stetzer sits down with renowned historian and author Carl Trueman to discuss his latest work, The Desecration of Man. Following the success of The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, Trueman explores how the rejection of external authority and the ascent of "expressive individualism" have led us to a point where we no longer just ignore meaning—we actively delight in smashing it.From the pervasive influence of technology and AI to the complex ethical landscapes of IVF and surrogacy, Trueman traces the roots of our modern malaise back to thinkers like Rousseau, Freud, and Nietzsche. Together, Ed and Carl wrestle with how the church can offer a "consecrated" alternative, pointing to the Imago Dei as the only stable foundation for human dignity. This is a vital conversation for leaders seeking to navigate a culture that is rapidly reconfiguring the very definition of humanity.ABOUT OUR GUESTCarl Trueman is a theologian, historian, and author known for his work on church history, theology, culture, and the modern self. He serves as a professor at Grove City College and previously taught at Westminster Theological Seminary and the University of Nottingham.Trueman is widely recognized for his thoughtful analysis of contemporary culture through the lens of historic Christianity. His bestselling book The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self has significantly shaped evangelical discussions about identity, expressive individualism, and cultural change. A frequent conference speaker and commentator, Trueman combines scholarly depth and cultural insight as he helps Christians think carefully about faithfulness and truth in a rapidly changing world. Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Get notes on this podcast here: https://churchleaders.com/news/503438-joby-martin-pastors-understand-grace.html Joby Martin joins "The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast" to discuss what happens when a church leader has truly been run over by the "grace train" and understands the profound love and grace of God. Last week, we ran our second-most listened to episode of the year, with Jennie Allen. Jennie explains why our emotions are good gifts from God and how that truth fits with the command to take every thought captive. Check out our conversation with her here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/464670-jennie-allen-church-leaders-emotions.html ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X: https://x.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/ "Run Over by the Grace Train: How the Unstoppable Love of God Transforms Everything" by Joby Martin The Church of Eleven22 Check out Joby's website Follow Joby on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Get notes on this podcast here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/464670-jennie-allen-church-leaders-emotions.html In our next most listened to episode of 2024, Jennie Allen joins "The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast" to explain why our emotions are good gifts from God and how that truth fits with the command to take every thought captive. Last week, we revisited our conversation with Jon Acuff, who shared why church leaders should wholeheartedly pursue their potential and how they can do so in a way that honors God. Check out our conversation with him here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/466196-jon-acuff-success-without-destroying-church.html ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/ "Get Out of Your Head: Stopping the Spiral of Toxic Thoughts" by Jennie Allen "Untangle Your Emotions: Naming What You Feel and Knowing What to Do About It" by Jennie Allen IF:Gathering Check out Jennie's website Follow Jennie on Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, TikTok, and YouTube Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Get notes on this podcast here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/466196-jon-acuff-success-without-destroying-church.html In our top performing episode of 2024, Jon Acuff joins "The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast" to explain why church leaders should wholeheartedly pursue their potential and how they can do so in a way that honors God. Last week, Dr. Libin Abraham joined us to share what God has taught him about the calling of a pastor and the importance of focusing on the local church. Check out our conversation with him here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/502503-libin-abraham-gods-job-description-pastor.html ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/ "All It Takes Is a Goal: The 3-Step Plan to Ditch Regret and Tap Into Your Massive Potential" by Jon Acuff "Soundtracks: The Surprising Solution to Overthinking (Overcome Toxic Thought Patterns and Take Control of Your Mindset)" by Jon Acuff "Stuff Christians Like" by Jon Acuff Check out Jon's website Follow Jon on Facebook, Instagram, X/Twitter and YouTube Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Get notes on this podcast here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/502503-libin-abraham-gods-job-description-pastor.html Dr. Libin Abraham joins "The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast" to share what God has taught him about the calling of a pastor and the importance of focusing on the local church. Barna CEO David Kinnaman joined us last week to share what the research shows about how pastors are doing and how they can best disciple their people. Check out our conversation with him here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/502143-david-kinnaman-pastors-skill-set-preaching.html ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X: https://x.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/ Bent Tree Bible Fellowship Follow Libin on Facebook, Instagram, and X/Twitter Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Get notes on this podcast here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/502143-david-kinnaman-pastors-skill-set-preaching.html Barna CEO David Kinnaman joins "The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast" to share what the research shows about how pastors are doing and how they can most effectively disciple their people. Nona Jones joined us last week to share what God has taught her about rejection and how she came to see it, not as an enemy, but as a gift. Check out our conversation with her here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/501752-nona-jones-rejection-gift-god.html ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X: https://x.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/ "Faith for Exiles: 5 Ways for a New Generation to Follow Jesus in Digital Babylon" by David Kinnaman Barna Group State of the Church State of Pastors Summit RightNow Conference "Ex-Christians Aren't the Only Ones Deconstructing Faith" by Barna Group Presenting sponsor: Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.